I wonder what Ron Paul would think of the APT Tax. I know that he is anti income tax and has gone on the record saying the fair tax better than what we have now. Any ideas? Isn't he Dr. Hermann's congressman?
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NoMoreIRS |
Ron Paul & the APT |
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Posts: 27 (12/17/07 09:52:21) |
I wonder what Ron Paul would think of the APT Tax. I know that he is anti income tax and has gone on the record saying the fair tax better than what we have now. Any ideas? Isn't he Dr. Hermann's congressman?
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rubicon |
What would Ron Paul do? | ||
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Posts: 128 (12/19/07 19:15:36) |
No More IRS:
I don't know if Dr. Hermann is in Ron Paul's district, but I find it an interesting coincidence that they're both MD's. Ron Paul is of course philosophically libertarian. Having read and fully digested the late Murray Rothbard's "For a New Liberty: the Libertarian Manifesto", I think APT goes a long way toward institutionalizing libertarian principles. APT is non-intrusive, i.e., no more IRS (Great username by the way...), and it is almost completely laissez-faire. What I find especially compelling about APT is that it is actually a user fee. It acts as a fee for the use of the banking and monetary system. This places the cost for the use where it properly belongs, which is at the point of use in a financial transaction. If and when there is a real world justification to use this system, then paying the user fee is also justified. Now, as a total replacement tax, APT does more than cover the cost associated with the money and banking system. Yet I see this as appropriate, because the government infrastructure is necessary and proper to maintain the viability of the money and banking system. Without national defense, police, courts, etc., economic values are not protected, and connot be easily monetized. Anyway, I thought I'd offer my musings, since we're on the subject. I also think that fundamental tax reform is not going to be a huge issue in the 2008 election. And certainly APT is almost completely unknown to most of the public, and even to most politicians. I don't know what it will take for it to catch on, but it certainly is an idea who's time has come. Thanks for the post... Rubicon. |
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wjhermann |
Not My Congressman | ||
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Posts: 147 (12/22/07 20:33:04) |
Ron Paul "represents" the district next to me. Used to be mine but not for a few elections now.
Libertarians are generally against APT BECAUSE, are you sitting down, 'it isn't visible enough and government could grow without anyone paying attention since the IRS/tax burden pain would be gone'. I say, life without pain may not be too bad...and I promise to pay attention. Merry Christmas everyone. Ask Santa for a prominent champion for APT. Last month I personally handed an APT synopsis to Duncan Hunter (my favorite in this race) but he has been smitten by the Fair Tax genie. The poiticians are safe as long as they can hide behind the Fair Tax illusion. |
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paratracker |
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Posts: 1 (10/16/08 01:15:10) |
I'd agree with Ron Paul. APT is a tax on the flow of money, so it discourages flow - that's a not a good thing. Plain old consumption (sales) tax is
better because the behavior it encourages is savings. APT encourages inertia because money escapes tax by staying wherever it happens to be. That discourages
investment because money gets taxed on the way out. Savings good; investment good; consumption is good when its rational (we could use a bit more rational
with out consumption in the U.S.). Sales taxes burden consumption, encouraging rationality. If you're going to say consumption taxes are regressive, then
I use the same justification that APT uses for it's non-regressive impact - the rich spend more, so they pay more. You think this is regressive because
the poor pay a higher percentage of their income as tax, but the reality is that all of corporate spending is before income tax, while all of labor is after
income tax. The wealthy own/control corporations that buy things they use (cars, travel, even houses) with pre-income tax dollars, thus providing a lavish
lifestyle above the tax line. Consumption taxes level that playing field.
If you tax spending instead of income, Paris Hilton will pay taxes on her travel expenses to visit company properties around the world in exactly the same fashion that a carpenter taking his family on a vacation would pay. She will do it more often, therefore leveling the regressive nature of consumption tax. A further adjustment can be made, by deliberately not levying consumption taxes on used goods. The poor can escape taxes on furniture, cars, appliances, even clothes, thus leaving only food and medicine. Except for the obvious luxury segment, food is about the same for everybody. If you want to address the regressive nature of medical costs, deal with that issue in a benefit program, not the collection program. A consumption tax on new goods and services has a larger population base than income tax because illegal aliens, criminals, and tourists also contribute whenever they shop in an actual store. Sure, sale of illegal drugs will escape taxes, but they're doing that under income tax. A consumption tax is superior to APT because it spreads the burden across black market elements and tourists. Consumption taxes suffer from the same cash escape that APT does, but how significant is that? Taxes should encourage rational behavior. A tax on the flow of money doesn't accomplish any rational objective there, in fact APT works in the opposite direction to rationality - where you want money to work in the economy, either as investment or consumption, APT discourages both with equal disregard. It also encourages keeping money in the mattress to escape tax on the way in. The banking system would collapse almost overnight. |
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paratracker |
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Posts: 2 (10/16/08 09:15:23) |
Beyond the tendency to push transactions into cash and keep capital out of financial institutions, there's a secondary effect. APT tends to penalize
businesses that operate with high inventory turns (usually at low margins), so prices at WalMart, Aldi Foods, etc. would tick up. That effect is regressive.
High margin, lower inventory turn businesses like recreational vehicle dealerships, boat dealers, car dealers, would all benefit. Big companies like Microsoft
already self fund their health insurance program. APT would encourage corporations to do their own banking too. Financial markets that are dependent on the
unfettered flow of cash would become more sluggish. Day traders and arbitrageurs would have to rethink their strategies. Markets would become less efficient.
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rubicon |
Welcome. | ||
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Posts: 112 (10/19/08 05:50:28) |
Paratracker: Welcome to the forum. I've been posting here for several years. As such, I would like to comment on the points you make in your last post. Cash is only a tiny fraction of the total APT tax base, and gets special treatment with APT. There's nothing about APT that keeps capital out of financial institutions. It takes a housing market meltdown to do that. But then there's "the bailout". The fraction of a percent APT tax on inventory turnover is easily absorbed by companies. The small cost increase is a one time increase, as opposed to inflation that is a perpetual cost increase. Further, the small APT tax is more than offset by the much larger savings in payroll tax and corporate tax. I don't see anything wrong with self-funded health insurance programs or in-house banking. If it makes sense to do these or anything else different under APT, then it is rational and efficient, and increases productivity and economic growth. APT does not in any way restrict the flow of cash or any other financial resources. It has been discussed here before that day traders will probably have to get special treatment under APT, or the activity will be curtailed. Each one of these specific points can be a whole discussion unto itself. Many of these topics have been discussed here at length. If the APT issue interests you, I would encourage you to continue to review the APT web site and peruse the postings on this board. It's a lot to absorb. I'm still getting a better understanding of the plan and all the attendant issues. I hope to see you continue posting here. Rubicon.
Last Edited By: rubicon
10/19/08 16:17:32.
Edited 3 times.
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wjhermann |
Welcome Paratracker | ||
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Posts: 140 (10/20/08 19:31:32) |
Thanks for your thoughtful comments. Rubicon answered many of your concerns well. Although subjectively many of your arguments are valid in the usual sense
of taxation, when you consider the extremely small size of the tax a whole new way of thinking emerges. APT is very progresssive but you are right the small
rate doesn't punish the rich nor does it punish the poor -- taxes shouldn't be a punishment. If relief is necessary for the poor - and I believe it is
in constructive ways -- then it should be provided by the government that will be vastly improved in its ability to do so under APT -- It should not be
provided through the tax code but as separate thoughtful means and programs.
The Fair tax as currently proposed is a non-starter used by politicians to hide behind so they can say they have a tax reform plan. It is ridiculous in manys ways but you bring up the "used goods" concept -- well what will that do to the companies who make new goods when the price differential will be over 30% at the start. People work for those new goods companies. Then there is the definition of "used" and what a black market that will open up with so many tax dodges as ways to be classified used. There will have to be a "Used Goods" Police in every state Comproller's office. Then there's the double taxation of all the savings put away after tax in this country for the years since 1915. APT would double tax them too as they are spent at 0.3% -- not a punishing 30%. I'll stop here. As you study APT with an open mind, I hope you will find the choices it requires very beneficial on balance for the people and government alike. Oh, and don't worry, we will have a program for ex-daytraders, so the rest of the country can benefit and not feel quilty. |
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paratracker |
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Posts: 3 (10/31/08 15:35:31) |
U.S. gross domestic product is about $14.5T <<a href="http://www.forecasts.org/gdp.htm">http://www.forecasts.org/gdp.htm>. The U.S.
federal revenues total $1.7T (though spending is running about $2.8T) <<a
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_United_States_federal_budget">http://en.wikipedia.org/w...ted_States_federal_budget>. If consumption
taxes directly replaced ALL current federal revenue sources you'd have a 11.72% consumption tax rate. If you just replaced the personal and corporate
income taxes with consumption taxes, you only need to replace $1.1T in individual income taxes + $370.2B in corporate income taxes, but let's throw in
$869.6B in social security taxes and $26B in estate and gift taxes for a total of $2.3658T, now divide that by the GDP and you get a 16.31% consumption tax
rate. How do you get 30% out of 16.3? What are you smoking? If you're going to argue against consumption taxes, don't just throw out a meaningless wild
ass guess, argue against the real number. Go get some real figures and argue with facts.
So you're worried about consumption tax cheats? Forty-seven states collect sales tax. If sales tax avoidance were a serious problem, wouldn't we already have seen a huge black market emerge? Do you really think that flea markets will displace grocery stores and JC Penny and the rest of the mainstream retail trade? How many flea markets are there compared to the number of strip malls? Just driving around, I don't think flea markets are a real threat and the fact is that they're supposed to collect sales taxes too. If you're worried about no tax on used cars because it would threaten car makers, maybe the threshold should be no taxes on used cars selling for less than 25% of what you could earn in a year at minimum wage, i.e. just over $4000. That way, the regressive impact of consumption taxes is minimized (just food and medicine). On the other hand 0.3% on every deposit or withdrawal from a bank account is likely to keep money out of banks. We'd have a domestic capital shortage and capital flight to overseas investments. We want to attract capital, not drive it away. If the tax system were based on consumption, people would be encouraged to SAVE to avoid tax, thus building up cash reserves to help weather economic depressions like the one we are experiencing now. We currently have a debt based economy. The only people that benefits is lenders. We need a tax system that helps people make the transition from working class to some degree of financial independence. Taking working class incomes at gun point (or jail point as the case may be), deprives people of the chance to do their own capital planning. The APT doesn't fix that situation, it obscures that path just as much as depriving people of their cash via income tax. APT has absolutely no beneficial effects and several deleterious ones. It's bad news. |
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rubicon |
I sympathize... | ||
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Posts: 114 (11/01/08 15:09:16) |
Paratracker: Before I ever heard of APT, I too was smitten with the Fair Tax. APT and the Fair Tax share a lot of the same advantages. They both eliminate the need to file and be under the thumb of the IRS. They both are simple and efficient, and eliminate tax preferences and other distorting qualities. Over time I have come to the point where I see APT as by far the more preferable plan, and here's why: I recently started a thread here to discuss tax philosophy. I've come to realize that just merely devising an ingenious plan is not enough. We first need to ask the right questions about why we even tax, and the fundamental purpose for this. Our economy needs a governmental infrastructure in order to function optimally, if at all. Some aspects of this infrastructure can be paid at the point of use, kind of like paying a bus fare in public transportation. Other things, like national defense, don't lend themselves to a per use charge like this. National defense is an example of a communal or societal benefit, often referred to as a "public good". So then how best to pay these societal benefits (public goods)? Every time money is exchanged at least two parties are using and benefiting from the commercial economy supported by a government infrastructure. Accordingly, the most efficient and most logical way of assessing and collecting a tax, which is actually a user fee, is by the tiny incremental universal flat rate, conveniently and efficiently assessed and automatically collected at the point of a financial transaction, which is APT. Savings should not be encouraged by a crippling 30% tax on consumption. People choose to save based on their perceived needs for retirement and other long term goals. The government just got through sending out $150 billion in stimulus checks to encourage spending, i.e., consumption, and presumably to avoid a serious downward spiral in the economy. This stands in direct opposition to a consumption tax that claims it's good for the economy for doing just the opposite of the so called "stimulus package". I really encourage you to stay with us here a little while and learn more. I agree the Fair Tax has a lot of appeal, especially compared to the income tax. APT is truly revolutionary and is a complete break with traditional taxation. You've come to the right place if gaining knowledge and understanding is your goal. I sympathize with you for your views. I just hope you're willing to be persuaded by others here. I say this to you while knowing from experience that there are many committed Fair Tax advocates who would rather die than abandon the Fair Tax for anything else. Rubicon.
Last Edited By: rubicon
11/02/08 15:47:12.
Edited 5 times.
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ScottT |
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Posts: 3 (11/13/09 21:21:10) |
There has been some recent moves toward something like what is proposed with the APT Tax, which I agree with rubicon that it is actually a user fee, not a tax
at all. That it be uniformly applied makes it perfectly libertarian. This is quintessential to the Constitution's equal protection commandments.
Webster Tarpley has come out in favor of a Tobin Tax, by which I'm pretty sure he means what we are talking about here. Ellen Brown has also suggested a Tobin Tax: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ellen-brown/goldmans-profits-come-fro_b_349640.html Here's an excerpt: . . .today the big Wall Street money comes from short-term speculation in currency transactions, commodities, stocks, and derivatives for the banks' own accounts. And here's the beauty of it: the Wall Street speculators have managed to trade in practically the only products left on the planet that are not subject to a sales tax. While parents in California are now paying 9% sales tax on their children's school bags and shoes, Goldman is paying zero tax to sustain its gambling habit. Race track winnings and other forms of gambling are taxed at up to 25%. But stock market trades get off scot free. That helps explain Goldman's equally eye-popping tax bracket. What would you guess - 50%? 30%? Not even close. In 2008, Goldman Sachs paid a paltry 1% in taxes - less than clerks at WalMart. Speeding Tickets to Slow Day Traders? Wall Street bankers have been called today's "welfare queens," feeding at the public trough to the tune of trillions of dollars. The fact that their speculative trades remain untaxed suggests a tidy way that taxpayers could recover some of their bailout money. The idea of taxing speculative trades was first proposed by Nobel Prize winning economist James Tobin in the 1970s. But he acknowledged that the tax was unlikely to be implemented because of the massive accounting problems involved. Today, however, modern technology has caught up to the challenge, and proposals for a "Tobin tax" are gaining traction. The proposals are very modest, ranging from .005% to 1% per trade, far less than you would pay in sales tax on a pair of shoes. For ordinary investors, who buy and sell stock only occasionally, the tax would hardly be felt. But high-speed speculative trades could be slowed up considerably. Wall Street traders compete to design trading programs that can move many shares in microseconds, allowing them to beat ordinary investors to the "buy" button and to manipulate markets for private gain. ScottT |
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ScottT |
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Posts: 4 (11/13/09 21:43:33) |
I meant to say what I would think Ron Paul would say.
He would say that we need to concentrate on those issues where there is some traction, like auditing the Fed. He always votes for tax cuts, and votes against the vast majority of spending. He is a committed small-government advocate. I read somewhere that Milton Friedman was scared to death of the sort of fee we have all been talking about. Why? Because it would be too easy for government to raise money and become too large and intrusive. I agree that government is too large and intrusive, but this way, at least we could be paying our own bills, rather than expecting the Chinese to decide to lay claim to our children's fortunes. He has always been for abolishing the IRS, but mainly because he wants government to be half the size it is now. I think he would come around, if his supporters could muster the same fervency they have for ending the fed. His popularity grows every day, and seems only to gain credibility as the media shuns and tries to marginalize him and his supporters. They are mainly young idealists and old patriots loyal to the constitution and the human rights it promises. He's of the Austrian school of economics, so he doesn't really have any new ideas about monetary policy. Basically he wants to go back to the gold standard. But anything to get rid of fractional reserve banking and debt money, and the crude and cruel knob of interest rates in the hands of a bunch of banksters who don't seem to have a patriotic bone in their bodies. That article has some other nuggets in it: Joseph Stiglitz, a Nobel Prize winning economist and former World Bank leader, disagrees. In Istanbul in early October, he said that a Tobin tax was not only necessary but, thanks to modern technology, would be easier to implement than ever before. "The financial sector polluted the global economy with toxic assets," he said, "and now they ought to clean it out." ScottT |
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